Different difficulty between AMIGA version, and PC version (played in AMIGA way)

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5 months 2 weeks ago #142896 by verdealex79
Hi, I remember having read somewhere in this forum, that this beautiful PC version of SWOS 2020 should play as the old SWOS 96/97, concerning the difficulty... giving you the choice between AMIGA difficulty and PC DOS difficulty.

Now: i played SWOS in those years, and when I got this version i tried to play on PC in AMIGA mode, difficulty normal. I was crushed by the AI; I am even now after a month of practice, I cant score a goal for ages and get loads of goals from AI. Honestly, I didnt remember it to be so difficult.

Since I am deep in emulation, for a nostalgia trip I loaded the old original SWOS 96/97 for Amiga and played the AI with WinUAE. To my surprise, while playing 96/97 teams of similar skill against team of similar skill (as I did on PC SWOS2020), I suddenly scored lots of goals and get much fewer than on SWOS2020 for PC. Enormously different difficulty!
I thought "well who knows, there have been so many versions of SWOS for Amiga... maybe I am not playing the last one, on which SWOS2020 is based".

So I got the .hdf version of 2020 and loaded it in WinUAE. This MUST play the same as the PC version of 2020, right?

Wrong! If I play SWOS 2020 on Amiga WinUAE, the difficulty is the same of original SWOS 96/97 on Amiga which I previously tried! I score a lot and win lots of matches.... And I tried playing the EXACT same match (same teams) on PC SWOS2020 and WinUAE SWOS2020!

So please tell me: you guys tweaked the difficulty in the PC version, right? Because I am the same person of the same skill when I play Amiga version of SWOS2020 and PC version of SWOS2020, but in AMIGA i see enormously different difficulty!

Its not a problem, to be honest... Its like having two possibilities instead of one... but I am curious to understand how it can be, since you always said that PC version (in Amiga mode) and Amiga version should play the same, and that PC code was taken should bring the experience of the last available version.... I tried both normal version and total pack version, but no matter what, PC versions are bloody difficult and different from Amiga version.

Thank you, great work!
The following user(s) said Thank You: captaincofresi

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5 months 2 weeks ago - 1 month 2 weeks ago #142901 by captaincofresi
The way I see it, is that with AmigaSWOS (WinUAE) and SWOS2020 version 1.1 you now have 5 different difficulty levels:
  • SWOS2020: PC DOS - Normal
  • SWOS2020: PC - DOS - Expert (using Mozg's tactics for both player / cpu teams)
  • AmigaSWOS (WinUAE) - Normal (well you don't really have a choice there)
  • SWOS2020: Amiga - Normal
  • SWOS2020: Amiga - Expert (using Mozg's tactics for both player / cpu teams)

I started about 4 years ago with the Amiga version using the AmigaSWOS program that also uses WinUAE in offline mode and played some online matches. As I was used to the PC DOS version, this was a whole new game to me. The pitches seemed larger and the goalies AI was way way better than on the PC DOS version I used to play. I do remember 'standard 100% scoring positions vs cpu' on the PC DOS version. So generally speasking playing Amiga is harder than PC DOS.

Although what I noticed is that using the SWOS2020 Amiga Expert mode, it did not only change the tactics. It seems that the goalies behave differently and keep out more goals than usual. I compared it also to the AmigaSWOS program with WinUAE, I also noticed it was much easier to score goals in that program than it is in the new SWOS2020 Total Pack. Already posted it on the forum, untill now no reply on that though. I guess they are hard at work behind the scenes. It's a wonderfull package they made and I enjoy it very much .:woohoo:

So I do agree with you that it does seem that there is another layer of AI difficulty added comparing AmigaSWOS (WinUAE) and SWOS2020 in Amiga mode.

I would love to be able to compare it better with my DIY training league, where I have a league of 4 of the best 16/17 teams (using coach) and my Brazil 96/97 team. The problem is that the Tactics I now made in SWOS2020 Amiga-Expert mode are not compatible to be used in AmigaSWOS (WinUEA), it says it cannot load them due to a different SWOS version. So until that is fixed, I cannot really test this. Also already posted it on the forum a couple of weeks back, also no reply on that though. Just hope they are hard at work behind the scenes.

All there is to say that I do enjoy the brutal difficulty of the Amiga - Expert mode very much :) . Played three seasons in the Premier League with Liverpool: 3rd / 71pts; 10th 51pts; 10th 44pts. Although the first season I did save a lot ;) . Now in the 4th season and figuring out how to make my own brandnew tactic work the best. So loads of Kudos to the SWOS2020 team!
Last edit: 1 month 2 weeks ago by captaincofresi. Reason: Added version 1.1 to the text, to be clear this was reported before the 'god' mode in version 1.2

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5 months 2 weeks ago #142913 by adrianozzo
Previously I played Amiga Swos and scored a lot of goals shooting diagonally just inside the box. Now in Swos 2020 with game style Amiga it's almost impossible, goalkeeper and defenders are so much stronger. PC DOS mode is kinda strange, the ball feels heavier and the players are slower, maybe that's why you feel the pitch larger

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5 months 2 weeks ago - 5 months 1 week ago #142917 by captaincofresi
Thanks, it's about the same here. In Amiga Swos most of my diagonal curved in/out shots just inside / outside the box went in. Mostly with players with the (F) Finish and (V) Velocity / strong shot stats from team Brazil 96/97. In the Amiga Expert mode, it is much harder to score these goals, although they do go in sometimes.

So it seems I went up two difficulty levels too quickly from Amiga SWOS to the SWOS 2020 Amiga Expert mode, while I could have gone only one difficulty level up with the SWOS 2020 Amiga Normal mode. Still, I do like a bit of a challenge, and with making new tactics I can't really go back now ;) .

EDIT: Well it seems that there is a huge difference between the goalis AI / cpu strength in AmigaSWOS and playing SWOS 2020 in Amiga mode. Even in Normal Mode, I often have about 12 good shots on target (both with F/V stats) with very stong players with Liverpool and they don't go in, while a weak opponnent gets 2 shots on target and 2 goals in the whole match. The goalies AI has been made far far more difficult in SWOS 2020 Amiga mode and the strikers for the cpu seem very strong somehow. And that's not only on Away matches, since I do know Sensi does give an advantage to the Home team.
Last edit: 5 months 1 week ago by captaincofresi. Reason: additional information after having played 5 seasons now in SWOS 2020

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2 months 4 days ago - 2 months 4 days ago #143463 by verdealex79
I really like and am grateful for your work on SWOS guys... I really love all new graphics, audio and all, but this "goalkeeper god mode" should be decreased or at least be configured further. Its not even difficulty: i like Dark Souls and Bloodborne, but SWOS is not fun like it could be, played in this way.

I think the amiga mode needs at least a setting for the difficulty, easier than actual "Normal" - at least for the goalkeeper AI.
I am curious, please answer: was the GK skill set so high "for error", or on purpose, because maybe all of you guys are so veteran of SWOS that you play like gods?

For "normal" players, I can assure that scoring in SWOS 2020 amiga mode is almost IMPOSSIBLE. I read in facebook forums that lots of people agree. But the DOS mode is slow and not a viable substitute for me.
So i think that the amiga mode should be fixed: it should play as the real Amiga hdf version plays - in fact if I load SWOS 2020 hdf and play it on WinUae, the experience is totally enjoyable. Fast and frenetic, but when a player is alone in front of the keeper, sometimes he scores like in real soccer; while in SWOS 2020 amiga mode, currently most of goals come from a "second shot" after the keeper saved the first (if you manage to get the ball after the saving).

With all the amazing things you accomplished... please please please give an option to decrease goalkeeper skill in amiga mode. Lots of people are in this mood in facebook groups.

Thank you!
Last edit: 2 months 4 days ago by verdealex79.

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2 months 4 days ago #143467 by lemonheadiv
The main goal of the project was to have a SWOS version running natively on modern systems with faithful Amiga physics.

The AI wasn't touched at all. In a lot of situations goalkeepers fall for the same exact tricks that work on Amiga (emulated or on real hardware).
Also, the skill set is the same that was added to the WinUAE version, and there is no dificulty setting for the AI. "Normal" just means the game's using default tactics, while in "Expert" they are replaced these with custom ones that have tighter formations. The AI behaves the same in both cases.

I'm not ruling out the possibility that there might be some diffferences, but I never got the impression that it was nearly impossible to score.
People on facebook have also been pointing out that the game is much faster than real Amiga, and it really isn't. Maybe they just don't remember how it used to run.

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2 months 4 days ago #143468 by Playaveli
The Amiga mode cannot be fixed, because it is already 100% spot on, the code is 100% identical.
There must be lots of placebo involved. I tried it over and over again, and I score the exact same goals on real Amiga 1200, Winuae and SWOS 2020 (Amiga gameplay), also the keepers are the same to me.

The difficulty settings of SWOS 2020 have nothing to do with changing the code, only default tactics are modified, so have less space and defenses are more tight. Click on the "?" icon in launcher!

What we could do is the following:
- add Xbox Live Arcade gameplay mode (Amiga gameplay + PC DOS keepers)

That would give you Amiga gameplay with shitty PC DOS keepers.

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2 months 4 days ago #143472 by verdealex79
Hi guys, thanks for the answer. No placebo effect at all, I am 101% sure: in the PC version Amiga mode, scoring is waaaaay harder than Amiga version.

Even if I load the hdf of SWOS 2020, everything plays as I was used to.

I do believe to what you are saying about the identical code, but I still am sure it doesnt play the same. Could it be that the cpu speed can somehow "influence" the keepers? maybe the keeper AI algorithms execute operations calculating "where" the keeper has to jump, so better cpus (compared to Amiga) means better savings?

I dont know what it can be, but that scoring to AI (because i only play the AI) is way more difficult in PC amiga mode than real amiga, is a sure fact for me.

Thank you anyway!!!

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2 months 4 days ago #143473 by Playaveli
Thanks for your detailed feedback, I will have it checked. You sound very convincing.

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2 months 3 days ago #143476 by Playaveli
@verdealex79:

Please save like 3 replay files of SWOS 2020 v1.2 (after match, go to REPLAY menu, save replay, whole match). And point out certain keeper actions to me, so I can have a look at what exact situations you are concerned about.
Upload them for me and post a link.

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